CEO @ Conversion House 🏠 | On-demand design for small SaaS marketing teams so they can launch faster, position better and convert more.

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Joe Wheatley

The best GTM principle → Create abundance where there is scarcity

Credit goes to Santosh Sharan for this one!

Before ZoomInfo, B2B data was locked behind Dun & Bradstreet at $100K/year. Only the IBMs of the world could access it.

ZoomInfo dropped that to $5K/year and went from $10M to $100M (abundance for SMBs)

Then Apollo arrived and made B2B data available for under $100/mo (abundance for everyone)

Each time, data was scarce for a lower segment of the market
A company noticed → made it abundant → their growth exploded

The cycle repeats over and over. Scarcity becomes abundance. Winners look for new scarcity.

And when data becomes fully abundant (thanks Apollo) the old playbooks stop working (goodbye spray and pray). That's why the industry has shifted towards signals. 

Tools like:

- Clay
- Freckle.io
- BirdDog
- Signalbase (Previously LeadsOnTrees)

So the real money question: What’s scarce now, and what will be scarce next?

That’s where the opportunity lies.

Joe Wheatley 🏠

Founder @ Demand House | Intelligent outbound for B2B SaaS | Trusted by Warmly, Summize & Coefficient

4 layers of B2B outbound (and our go-to tech stack)

1 / Capture Layer
- Prospeo.io for cold leads, RB2B for website leads and Trigify.io for social listening

Note: since Prospeo's V2 launch, we've switched over from Apollo (see link in description for reasons why)

2 / Intelligence Layer
- Freckle.io as the GTM-brain (others use Clay - they do the same thing)
- HTTP APIs to find and validate emails, using the following providers:
--> Prospeo, LeadMagic and FullEnrich for waterfall enrichment
--> ZeroBounce for email validation
--> BounceBan to verify catch-alls
- Freckle credits for mobile numbers (only credits we use)
- OpenAI API for AI enrichments and classification
- Tier leads based on account-fit and engagement score
- Build email and cold call scripts using messaging frameworks + AI
- Route leads to right sequences (Apollo for Tier 1 & 2, Instantly for Tier 3)

3 / Outreach Layer
- Tier 1 is multi-channel, manual SDR outreach (with scripts to assist)
- Tier 2 is multi-channel, manual outreach (when out of Tier 1 leads)
- Tier 3 is fully-automated email outreach (using copy built in Freckle)
- Tier 3 also identifies who is in-market vs who is out-of-market. For in-market, send sales-focused messaging; for out-of-market, send marketing nurture

4 / Sales Layer
- If positive reply, add lead to CRM. Now over to SDR team to book a demo

Founder @ Demand House | Outbound systems for B2B SaaS | Trusted by Warmly, Summize & Coefficient

Proof that cold outbound isn't dead, and remains the BEST channel for building predictable pipeline

Last week we sent 1,800 emails across 3 campaigns (roughly 600 leads contacted)

Reply rates between 5.7-10.6%

5 opportunities

See for yourself.

Given we only just started running outbound for ourselves (started in 2026), with only 10 secondary inboxes, I'd say this is a damn good start

Before you say outbound is dead, think again!

You need to give the recipient a reason to reply (value).

Then you need to deliver on this value and offer more value to get the call.

But most don't offer real value, and then complain no one responds. Why would they?

Others give value to the wrong people. Your fault you've got a bad list.

Also - stop relying on marketing / content as your savior. It's a long-term play that should consume 20% of your efforts max. 80% should be on near-term pipeline aka. outbound.

If you put in the work to build the right list and offer (and you deliver on your promises), you will win.

Building Curacity's top 100 prospects in 10 minutes:

1 / What they do
Demand creation platform where hotels create content, Curacity distributes to premium publishers (Travel + Leisure, Condé Nast Traveler, etc.) to drive bookings and revenue

2 / Define ICP by analyzing best customers
50% small chains (8-14 properties), 33% independent (1 property), 67% US-focused, 83% hotels

3 / Identify buyer personas
CMOs, VP Marketing, Director of Marketing, VP Revenue Management (decision makers) + Marketing Managers, Brand Managers, Revenue Managers (champions)

4 / Identify key signals
Rapid growth (headcount/revenue), hiring for marketing manager, new CMO/VP Marketing, new property launches, rebranding, recent funding/acquisition, performance issues (low direct bookings, declining occupancy)

5 / Find leads in Apollo
Filter by marketing roles, C-suite/VP/Director level, company lookalikes (Viceroy Hotels, Virgin Hotels), US location, 200-1,000 employees, hotels/hospitality industry, layer on signals

6 / Import to Freckle / Clay
Combine 4 signal lists from Apollo (lookalike + rapid growth, lookalike + hiring, rapid growth, hiring) and import to Freckle/Clay

7 / Validate emails
Zero Bounce for validation, Bounce Ban for catch-all verification

8 / Enrich with phone numbers

9 / Verify ICP + buyer persona match
Is company ICP? Is person decision-maker? Remove leads that don't match both

10 / Build messaging
Rapid growth: "Growing team = need revenue to support payroll, explore new marketing channels?" / Hiring: "What are new marketing manager's priorities? Open to exploring new channels?"

Result: 94 verified top hotel decision-makers ready for multichannel outreach to drive Curacity sales

Top 100 Prospects in 10 Minutes for Blink (Employee Engagement Platform)

- Determine ICP based on best customers
- Map TAM & signals
- Build tiering system
- Find leads in Apollo
- Enrich, validate and filter in Freckle (or Clay)
- Build messaging relevant to signal (observation), ICP and persona

Frank Sondors 🥓 is literally the 🐐 of startup sales (he books 500 demos per month and scaled Salesforge.ai 🔥 from $0-$3M in less than 1 year)

When building a team, he said to start off with 2 reps
(Do not hire from big corporate like Google - wrong mindset)

And then he talked about how to acquire customers. It's not about one channel, it's about multi-channels working together.

Get data, test & iterate.

He also spoke about why you need to track first touch and last touch attribution

And finally, how to warm-up prospects before booking the demo

Head over to Frank's profile now and follow him. The guy to watch in 2026

We're getting more positive replies than we can handle.

Here's one example:

- Reached out to someone who just joined a 7/8 figure SaaS as Head of Sales
- Asked how the role was going (be human!)
- Offered genuine value

Outbound works when you do it better than everyone else.

Step 1 - Offer value to get the reply 
Step 2 - Offer value to get the call/audit

If you offer what they actually want and deliver on it, you'll win. Simple.

audience & revenue growth tips for B2B startups and creators

My mission is to build predictable pipelines for B2B startups. I share what I learn along the way. 

Read more if you are ready to build your pipeline 👇

💡 I am super relevant if you are:

→ Indie Hacker
→ Freelancer
→ Early Startup Founder
→ B2B Sales Person
→ Creator (any profession)

✍️ I write about:

→ B2B sales
→ Go to market strategies
→ Signal-based prospecting

Little more about me:

Cryptocurrency Investor. SaaS Enthusiast. Agriculture Business Owner. 

Lived in 3 countries.

I'm a T-shaped growth person who has experience in sales, content marketing, and growth.

Drop me a LinkedIn message if you need any help.

We will keep it simple.

Twitter: @sehaokudan

https://calendly.com/sehaokudan/30min

Seha Okudan

Sales is stressful.
Turkey built an industry around it.

Every job is stressful. 

I get that.

But the stress of a salesperson is different.

𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗳𝗮𝗰𝗲:

- Pressure
- Rejection
- Judgment
- Uncertainty
- Expectations

Still not convinced?

Every deal can die last minute.
Every “maybe” keeps your mind busy.
Every quota resets the clock.

𝗟𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻 𝗵𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗼:

-Detach from outcomes
-Handle rejection calmly

Don't lose your hair.

If this was your reality in 2025, I’ll see you in Istanbul this year.

I'm sure Turkish Airlines can help. 😅 

Jokes aside, what part of sales stresses you the most?

--
Inspiration: Tosin Jan

Building Outbound & RevOps systems for B2B companies

Prospects hate to give bad news.
(And it costs you time)

They don’t reject you.
They delay you.

They hope the problem fades.
They hope you stop following up.

Most sellers miss this.

You chase wrong deals for months.

Hoping to get positive news.

Bad discovery hides the truth.

One "I'm interested." costs you months.

𝗟𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻 𝗵𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗼:
-Get to “no” fast
-Pressure-test intent
-Disqualify with care
-Learn to walk away early

Money is in the follow-up. That's 100%

Not in chasing the wrong deals.

Bad news early saves months.
Good sales feels honest.

Agree or disagree?

Video Credit: @sales_humor /Instagram

BANT is outdated.
Here’s why 

BANT is a sales qualification criteria. 
Budget, authority, need, timing. 

Especially if it is outbound, the budget is rarely allocated for outbound as an example.

Last week, I saw someone in my network say,
 “BANT is the key to winning deals.”

Coming from an Enterprise C level, you'd believe.

Maybe 10–15 years ago, it was a silver bullet.

Today? 
Buying processes are no longer as simple as they used to be.


BANT is problematic because:

1️⃣ 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼 𝘀𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗿-𝗳𝗼𝗰𝘂𝘀𝗲𝗱

BANT was built for sellers, not for buyers. 
Buyers don’t want to be qualified for you
They want to be understood by you.

2️⃣ 𝗧𝗶𝗺𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗶𝘀 𝗿𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗹𝘆 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲𝗮𝗿

Buyers move in and out of priorities fast.
Your job is to show impact and move the solution up in the list.
Not learning if it's the right time.
It is rarely the right time.

3️⃣ 𝗕𝘂𝗱𝗴𝗲𝘁 𝗱𝗼𝗲𝘀𝗻’𝘁 𝗺𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝘆

If there’s real pain, the budget appears.
If there’s no pain, no number will matter.
Show how much their pain is costing them.

4️⃣ 𝗔𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗶𝘀 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗲𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗲𝗱

Usually, there’s no single decision-maker anymore.
Users, champions, legal, finance, etc.

Modern frameworks, such as MEDDPICC, shift the focus from qualification to alignment.

But religiously following a framework is a mistake.

Sales involve psychology and emotions.

Never forget that.

How do you qualify prospects?

Build quality lists.
(Or outbound fails.)

Outbound is harder now.

𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗰𝗮𝗻 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲:

-Good offer
-Great copy
-Reliable infra
-Warmed up emails

None of this works if three things are wrong.

- Bad timing
- Wrong people
- Old contact data

You waste time.
You hurt deliverability.
You miss opportunities.

𝗣𝗿𝗼𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗼 𝗳𝗶𝘅𝗲𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀:

1️⃣ Pick intent that matters
2️⃣ Build pre-verified lists
3️⃣ Find real decision makers
4️⃣ Sync natively with your sequencer
5️⃣ Launch without cleaning chaos

I was part of the Prospeo V2 beta program, tested with one of my clients, and we LOVED it. (thanks for inviting me, Matthew!)

It did what outbound tools should do.

No hacks. No patchwork.

𝗦𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝗻𝘂𝗺𝗯𝗲𝗿𝘀:
99% contact data accuracy, up to 30% call connect.

That changes outcomes.

If lists are weak, outbound dies.

Check out Prospeo.io V2, you won't regret it.

----
PS: Clay ranks Prospeo as the most accurate data provider. Not a surprise.

Sales is easy.
(is it?)

"If the product is good, it'll sell itself."

Ok, fair enough.

If you're not in sales, it is easy.

- You send a message
- Book a meeting
- Send your pitch deck
- Impress with your product
- Send the quote
- Get the money

Oh, sometimes they even come to you to buy!

If you're on the buyer side, it is even easier to say it is easy.

"They just show the product, send a quote, anyone can do it"

But here is the part they don't see:

- You get rejected every day
- You lose deals to competitors
- Prospects ghost you after 4 calls
- Legal stalls your contract for weeks
- Champions go silent before signing

Competition is bigger than ever.
Everyone is building fast now.
Buyers have more power than ever.

Sales isn’t easy.

It just looks that way when it’s done right.

What part of the job do people underestimate the most?

The biggest sales mistake is simple.
(but still overlooked)

Talking too much about yourself.

Everyone knows this.

Some still forget it.

𝗡𝗼𝗯𝗼𝗱𝘆 𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁:

- Your offer
- Your service
- Your product
- Your new feature
- How great you are

𝗧𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴:
Does this help me hit my goals?

You learn that by talking less and by asking clear questions.

Sales gets easier when it is about them.

Not you.

Agree or disagree?

Selling a no-product market fit SaaS?
It is not a sales job.

It is a founder job without equity.

In those companies, your role is not just closing.

𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗹𝘀𝗼 𝗻𝗲𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗼:

- Find the real ICP
- Fix weak positioning in live calls
- Turn vague value into clear outcomes
- Surface feedback no one wants to hear

You'll face blockers that kill deals before they start.

Especially if you're working with a founder who loves the product.

They're going to blame you when you can't sell.

They’ll defend features.
They’ll call it a “sales problem.”
They'll call prospects stupid for not getting it.

Sellers can't sell a product nobody needs.

Only the founder can sell to his/her network.

Sellers don’t fail here.

The product does.

Is your problem a “sales problem” or a product problem?

Never pitch the solution first.
-here's why

Problems have many fixes.

An umbrella works.
A roof works too.

Both protect from rain.

But only one fits the buyer’s world.

If you pitch early, you guess.
Guessing kills trust.

𝗙𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗹𝗹𝗼𝘄𝗶𝗻𝗴:

-Fear they want gone
-Desire they want fast
-Challenge blocking progress

Then do one more thing.

Show the impact.

What breaks if nothing changes?
What slows down?
What costs them money, time, or status?

When they feel the impact, they pull the solution from you.

Not the other way around.

Sell less.
Diagnose more.

➡️ How do you diagnose before you pitch?

Sales sucks.
(It is true.)

Closing, prospecting, the whole thing sucks, too.

- You’re ghosted after a “great” call
- Quota pressure eats at your sleep
- You’re rejected 13 times before lunch
- People assume you’re pushy before you speak

All true.

The worst part? 

Some people see you as order takers.

Send email → show product → send quote → done

But here’s the thing.

It’s also a life skill.
There’s no way around it.

Start shifting your perspective.

Because it is also awesome:

- It can get very lucrative
- You meet cool people every day
- You get paid to solve real problems
- It’s the fastest path to building a business
- You build grit that most jobs will never teach
- You learn to read people better than a therapist

Most people can’t handle both sides.

But if you can?

Sales will change your life.

Be honest, do you love it or hate it?

Just "do more” is lazy manager advice.
Here's why:

Just do "do more" is a lazy manager advice.

5 difficult scenarios for salespeople:
(Even for the top ones.)

5 difficult scenarios for salespeople

5 worst sales discovery questions:

Outbound is changing.
Before 2019, spray & pray worked.

Send thousands of generic emails → get leads.

𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝗶𝘁 𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗽𝗽𝗲𝗱 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴:

- Deliverability got stricter
- Prospects got smarter (sales methods)
- Email channels got flooded

Now, in 2025, we can create high-quality emails in bulk.
With AI.

And yes, it still works for now.
(If your deal size is small + TAM is huge.)

You can also have the best cold email infrastructure.

𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝗺𝘆 𝗼𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗼𝗻:
It is getting easier to create mass email campaigns,

So history will repeat itself.

-Buyers will get “immune”
-ESP rules will tighten (even more strict)

Even good emails will start to see fewer replies.

For me, sending mass messages isn’t sales. It is a form of marketing. And it’s starting to look a lot like paid ads, only through inboxes.

I think email service providers will regulate and monetize it pretty soon.

LinkedIn avoids spam as much as possible with InMail ads, Sales Navigator credits, message limits, and verifications.

What are your thoughts?

How are you future-proofing your outbound?

-
𝗛𝗲𝗿𝗲’𝘀 𝘄𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗺𝗲:

Signal-based, hyper-relevant, multichannel approach. 

8-13 step sequences - 40-50 business days.
(cold call, LinkedIn, email)

And leveraging referrals, my network, and multithreading when/if needed.

Sales skill is a life skill.
(not just for more revenue)

Sales is not just a revenue skill.

It can help you:

- Negotiate better pay
- Build trust with people
- Sell ideas to your team
- Get buy-in from your boss
- Handle rejection with grace
- Build better personal relationships

Most importantly:
It helps you communicate with intent.

You can be a teacher, designer, engineer, or founder.

You’ll always move faster if you know how to sell.

Investing.
Copywriting.
Communication.

All life skills.

What life skill paid off most for you?

“Do you have a budget?”
(don’t ask this)

Yes, budget matters.
Every sales framework says so.

But asking it directly is lazy and self-serving.

𝗙𝗼𝗿 𝟮 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗼𝗻𝘀:

1️⃣ Outbound:

No one has a budget for something they just heard about. They didn’t plan for you. They didn’t ask for you.

So the answer is probably “no”, even if the pain is real.

2️⃣ Inbound:

Asking about budget too early kills momentum. You turn discovery into a price check.

𝗠𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗶𝘀 𝘀𝗶𝗺𝗽𝗹𝗲:
If there is a big pain, a budget can be found.

---

Asking “Do you have a budget?” is really asking:

“Do you have money for me?”

𝗜𝗻𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗱:

“Why hasn’t it worked?”
“Who is affected by this?”
“What have you tried so far?”
“What happens if this stays unsolved?”
“What does success change for the business?”

𝗧𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝘀𝗸:

“What priority would this have if it worked?”
“How do you usually fund problems like this?”
“Who would need to be involved to move forward?"

When the pain is clear, the budget becomes a logistics problem.

Budget is usually the outcome of good discovery.

How do you uncover budget without asking for it?

Objections are opportunities.
Many feel bad after an objection

I was like this back in 2018.

Telling myself:
"Not going to happen again."

I was terribly wrong.

You should feel good about objections.
They help you close.

𝗢𝗯𝗷𝗲𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗺𝗲𝗮𝗻:

-Real interest
-Serious buyer
-Active thinking
-Risk awareness

Gives you a chance to discover more.

And SOLVE.
(or disqualify fast)

𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝘀𝗵𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝗯𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗳 𝘀𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗼𝗻𝗲:

Asks nothing
Shows no concern
Says "great product
Says yes to everything

I learned this two months later. A prospect said they would buy. - “100% sure.”

Then they vanished.

Waste of time...

Handle objections well.

This gives you a chance to solve. Or disqualify fast.

Focus on better-fit clients.

Agree or disagree?

Ideas are worthless.
(until someone pays for it)

Building products is easy now.

Every day, we see a new SaaS project.

“Let’s build first. We’ll sell later.”
“People loved the idea.”

That is how you burn resources.

Selling is the only real validation.

7+ years in B2B sales.
One failed micro-SaaS.

Almost nobody told me that my product/idea is bad.

𝗬𝗼𝘂'𝗹𝗹 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗮𝗯𝗹𝘆 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗹𝗹𝗼𝘄𝗶𝗻𝗴:

1️⃣ Sounds like a great idea, we'll consider it when you build the product.
2️⃣ We'll subscribe when it is ready!
3️⃣ We'll try it once it is live!

None of this is validation.
None of it is good news.

Because people hate to give bad news.

𝗠𝘆 𝘀𝘂𝗴𝗴𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻?
Make people take their credit cards out in advance.

Is it easy? Absolutely not.

This is why you can ask people to make small commitments first.
(Waitlist, for example)

Yes – people can buy later too, but that’s a big risk.

You might waste your time, energy, and resources.

𝗥𝗲𝗺𝗲𝗺𝗯𝗲𝗿:
Money is proof. Everything else is just talk.

If the money is not in your account, there is no deal.

If you don't have any sales before building;
Don’t build it.

How do you get real commitments from prospects?

What is one thing AI will never be able to do? 
(In sales)

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