Stealth Startup

Building the only software platform that helps brands exit the ROAS hamster wheel and get to 50% of budgets going to brand, which is the proven mix, but a faaaar cry from the 0-3% of budgets most brands are putting towards brand / top of funnel. 

The growth of your dreams lies in the gap between how you currently measure ROI and how you could be measuring it.

Co-Founder

Chubbies Shorts

Board Member

Loop

With a bunch of other people smarter than me, helped shape the initial product based on our needs and vision for what should exist.

Drata

Investor

Odeko

CaaStle

Cents

My own

Real Estate Investment and Development

Blend

Rutherford Investments

Private Equity

Cofounder of Chubbies + Loop Returns | Now, Marathon: A managed technology platform + bespoke services offering helping you exit the short-term direct-response hamster wheel to find your balance of Brand and performance

I cofounded Chubbies. $100M exit. 40% growth at 25% EBITDA margins.

But 5 years in, we almost died.

Why? We were addicted to short-term ROAS. Only investing where we could measure immediate returns. It worked until it didn't. Growth stalled. Nothing we tried moved the needle.

The problem: We'd stopped building our brand. We'd lost what made people love us because we couldn't measure its impact.

So we built our own measurement system. What we discovered changed everything:

Moving from 3% to 50% brand investment unlocked growth we hadn't seen since year one.

That shift saved our business and drove our acquisition.

Now I'm building Marathon - the software platform that finally measures top-of-funnel ROI. Because every brand deserves to escape the performance marketing hamster wheel that almost killed us.

Here's what Marathon does:

1. Quantifies future revenue from brand investments
2. Proves the ROI your CFO needs to see
3. Shows you the optimal brand/performance split (hint: it's not 97/3)

If you're stuck refreshing ROAS dashboards while growth flatlines, you're exactly where we were.

The difference? You don't have to guess your way out.

Apply for early access: marathondataco.com

CEO: I can't approve "brand marketing" spend in 2026 if I can't measure the return, even if it's needed to get out of stage 3

New CMO: i agree. i think brand marketing is bullsh*t

CEO: what?

CMO: when CFOs and CEOs hear "brand marketing", they think: unaccountable, expensive, and money wasting. the vocab's gotta change

CEO: you're not wrong

CMO: it's a classic story...team gets approval to do a "brand campaign". they go off, find an agency, create an expensive ad, and run it on tv. then they wait. ultimately, everyone ends up asking: so...what happened?

CEO: happening as we speak

CMO: then, that one-off attempt gets chalked up as a loss, and future attempts get rejected because of the sour taste left in everyone's mouths

CEO: just did that 10 minutes ago

CMO: let's fix that by orienting the brand conversation around the specific business outcomes we want

CEO: yas queen slay

CMO: your 3 associations with traditional, Mad Men style advertising has truth to it, so you're not off base

CEO: might be why we've adhered to short term revenue as the key definition of success for so long. the trauma from that show is real

CMO: same - was shooketh

CEO: i'm accountable to the board for delivering financial results, so everything this company does has to ladder up to that

CMO: and that's how we have to frame marketing

CEO: great. the main goal for 2026 is sustainable profitability

CMO: so let's drill down on the 3 business results that best accomplish that goal. first, do you agree that being able to discount less and not lose customers helps us get more profitable?

CEO: obvi

CMO: second, since you know how much higher the revenue-per-session of branded organic search traffic is, would you agree we want to increase it as much as we can?

CEO: lowkey getting interrogation vibes, but yes

CMO: and third, we want to be able to expand into wholesale and show up the way we want, right?

CEO: just spoke with another founder. it's their most profitable channel

CMO: finally, do you think the "product, discount, offer, and urgency-driven" creative we use accomplishes these goals?

CEO: you sly dog. i see what you did there. no, definitely not

CMO: now that we're on the same page, let's talk execu...

CEO: (interrupting) it's finally clicking. lemme freestyle on the mic for a sec

CMO: great (starts beatboxing)

CEO: like every goal we've accomplished as a brand, the tactics were never immediately obvious. we committed to a feedback loop and tried things to reach that goal. our approach was simple: do more of what works. for "brand", we were never clear on the specific financial results we aimed to drive, so we didn't have a feedback loop. attempts fell flat and were viewed as a failure. while specific tactics aren't immediately obvious here either, we're used to that. we'll apply the same process we've applied throughout our history

CMO: (happy tears) that. was. beautiful. didn't rhyme, and you didn't rap at all, but you got a grammy in my heart

Preston 🩳 Rutherford

Talks about #d2c, #brands, #ecommerce, #brandbuilding, and #profitability

Cofounder of Chubbies, Loop Returns, and now MarathonDataCo.com (AKA everything you need to transition to a balance Brand and Performance)

Chubbies Shorts did > $100M & > 20% EBITDA for the 9 months ended Sept 30, 2025. 

Rainer and the whole team is crushing it!!

New CMO: We're moving 50% of the budget to brand / top of funnel in 2026.  

VP Growth: Hell no. My ROAS will drop, and my bonus depends on hitting a ROAS target.  

New CMO: Not anymore. Your bonus is tied to two metrics:  
1. Total contribution dollars generated by the business (at 35% contribution margin).  
2. Contribution dollar lifetime value (rolling 30, 60, 180, and 365 days) for our owned business.  

VP Growth: wtf?! How can I own this?  

New CMO: Metrics aren't about individual ownership—they're team-driven. The real challenge is choosing the right ones.  

VP Growth: How do we know these are the right metrics? 

New CMO: The right metrics grow business health and fundamental enterprise value. If we increase these metrics, while keeping fixed costs flat, we become more profitable. Are they perfect? Maybe not. But they're miles better than short-term ROAS or new customers acquired, which have far less of a direct connection to fundamental business health when we increase those numbers.

VP Growth: How can you say that? 

New CMO: For ROAS, you can hit any number by:  

1. Spending less.  
2. Doubling down on branded keywords, existing customers, or retargeting.  
3. Running more discount events.  

But ROAS lacks incentives to drive incremental revenue—what actually grows the business—and says nothing about the cost to generate it. And for new customers acquired, there is no notion of customer quality. A massive sale drives high ROAS but attracts discount hunters who won't buy at full price unless we run bigger sales. Both of these metrics lack context on quality and long term profit, which is ultimately the fundamental goal of business. 

VP Growth: Ok, I'll buy that, but how can I be responsible for overall contribution dollars? 

New CMO: As a singular individual, you can't. That's why half of your budget will now be based on team performance. For you though, it'll drive you to make better decisions with how you spend our marketing dollars

VP Growth: What do you mean? 

New CMO: You're free from short-term ROAS pressure to pad stats and can focus on incremental profitable growth. You can step back and do the things you know are right to drive net new incremental demand (meaning: you would not have gotten that revenue if you didn't spend that ad dollar) even if it's low ROAS.

VP Growth: And the mythical purse string holders are bought in? 

New CMO: Yup - the CFO and board now understand that the real goal for our marketing investments is both short and long term incremental contribution dollar generation at the highest possible contribution margin. That was my one condition for agreeing to accept the offer to join

VP Growth: Well butter my biscuits, let's do this.  

New CMO: Please never say that again

New CMO: Lululemon just posted their first drop in USA comparable sales. It's also the first time their share of search dropped below 50% in the US.

VP Growth: Brand search is irrelevant for so many reasons. 

New CMO: Yea, after working with hundreds of brands, nearly every time a brand is gaining share of search, they're doing well. Every time it's shrinking, they're not.

VP Growth: The actual numbers don't match reality though.

New CMO: Whether the absolute number is "correct" matters less than you think. If you're gaining share consistently for months, you're doing something right. If you're losing it, something's breaking. How are we doing? 

VP Growth: [looking] Shrinking, but it doesn’t matter. 

New CMO: A brand with 10x our share of search is generally a lot bigger than us. You want to scal this thing, right? 

VP Growth: Yea, but doesn't search volume just go up when you spend more? That makes it a spend metric, not a brand metric.

New CMO: Yes! That's exactly the point.

VP Growth: How is that the point?

New CMO: Over the long term, the ability to spend more only happens when your business grows. Obvious caveats aside, you can't spend unprofitably forever. The well runs dry.

VP Growth: So rising search = we can afford to spend more = healthier business?

New CMO: Exactly. And here's the key: it’s equally important to MONETIZE that search volume. Most brands lose sight of this. 

VP Growth: What does that mean? 

New CMO: We need to track the conversion rate from search to paid + organic clicks, and then revenue per session of that traffic - both need to stay high (or grow) as volume grows. 

VP Growth: Okay, but what about TV? Everyone says it artificially inflates searches. That spike doesn't mean anything.

New CMO: That "artificial inflation" is actually one of the best things about TV.

VP Growth: What do you mean?

New CMO: TV drives people to actively seek us out. They remember our brand AND take time to learn more about us.

VP Growth: Versus?

New CMO: Passively scrolling their feed and blindly clicking. I've clicked a thousand ads and bounced without remembering the brand name.

VP Growth: Same. So active behavior beats passive behavior.

New CMO: Finding ways to drive more active versus passive customer behavior becomes crucial if you want to truly scale.

VP Growth: What should I actually do with this?

New CMO: Three things:
1. Start tracking your search volume and share of search across key competitors
2. Run structured tests to drive search volume up. Ideally unpaid, but probably paid
3. Track two metrics like a hawk: search → click conversion rate and revenue per session

VP Growth: And if those metrics stay high while search volume grows?

New CMO: Good things tend to happen.

VP Growth: I like good things.

3 minutes and 3 seconds. That's all it takes to learn from the best investor on why Brand is the most important driver of business value. If you're debating if, why or how investing in Brand building is right for your company, look no further than this compilation of Warren Buffett quotes from interviews over the last 50 years on why investing in Brand is the single most important thing you can do.

While in the day-to-day of operating a company, it can seem foolish to invest in this mythical, hard-to-define thing called "Brand".

However, if we listen to the most successful judge of fundamental business asset value over the last century, it's clear that a strong Brand is the most important thing.

Here are the 5 topics, the 5 takeaways and the best quotes from the video


5 Topics:

1. Why Brand is the most important moat 
2. Why Brand is the most important driver of business value, 
3. The tangible benefits of a strong Brand in terms of pricing power, 
4. Maintaining margin and shelf space in retailers, and 
5. How a strong Brand is the only thing that can fend of inevitable competition.


5 Takeaways:

1. Brands are Moats
2. Single Most important thing he looks for are defensible Moats
3. The main Moat is Owning a Position in the consumer's Mind
4. A durable moat, driven by a strong Brand enables 
 a) sustainable Pricing Power (AKA the ability to not need to discount)
 b) the best defense against competition 
 c) leverage in the Brand <> retailer relationship 
5. Ultimately, Brand is the best driver of durable Profits


The Best Quotes:

On Brand:
1. "Brands are moats" 
2. "A strong Brand is really potent stuff."
3. "[The Moat] can be because...of its position in the consumer's mind...that it has this moat around it."
4. "So you've got to protect a Brand, you've got to enhance it in every way. You've got to get a promise in people's minds that gets delivered that way."

On the Importance of Moats: 
1. "What we're trying to do is we're trying to find a business with a wide and long lasting moat around it, protecting a terrific economic castle." 
2. "In essence, that's what business is all about."

On Brand and Pricing Power:
1. "The single-most important decision in evaluating a business is pricing power. If you've got the power to raise prices without losing business to a competitor, you've got a very good business." 
2. “You can measure the strength of a business over time by the agony they go through in determining whether a price increase can be sustained.”
3. "It's not a great business when you have to have a prayer session before you raise your prices a penny."

On Brand as defense against competition from other Brands and retailers:
1. "The Brand has to stand for something in the consumer's mind because, in the end, the retailer may want to shift to a house Brand."
2. "I remember when Sam Walton sent me the first six-pack of Sam's Cola 20 years ago. And believe me, Walmart has plenty of power, but so does Coca Cola and the Brand."

CMO: we need to do a brand reset in 2026

CEO: wtf does that mean? like a new logo?

CMO: no. that'd be a rebrand. not what i'm talking about

CEO: then what?

CMO: first, let's define terms: the strength of our brand is ultimately measured in two ways: first, the customer acquisition we get when we turn everything off (e.g., ads, discounts, etc). second, our ability to raise prices (or reduce discounts) faster than the rate of inflation and not lose customers 

CEO: never thought about it that way. go on

CMO: the fundamentals of our business are weakening, even though we're growing revenue

CEO: well, we need growth

CMO: i know we don't like to talk about it, but if we turned off our facebook ads and our promos, our revenue would fall through the floor. it's been getting progressively worse over the last 6 years, and we're not acknowledging how big of an issue it is

CEO: i acknowledge that's an issue. i'm not as close to the marketing numbers, so what exactly do you mean?

CMO: over the last 6 years, the revenue coming from branded organic search traffic (removing spikes and short term influences) on our online store have actually been steadily declining

CEO: but we've been growing

CMO: yes, we've only been growing the revenue coming from paid channels. we've been spending ad dollars to fuel our growth. that's fine if the revenue coming from organic sources is also keeping up, but it's not

CEO: i don't follow

CMO: we've been chasing these topline revenue growth numbers that i've allocated all of our resources (ad spend, creative budgets, etc) to driving highly-measurable short term revenue growth. this became a red flag for me last week when our facebook ads stopped delivering for 2 days and we had the worst August week 3 in the history of the company

CEO: oh that's what happened?! i thought we had a bug blocking checkout or something. site was working fine?

CMO: site was fine

CEO: yikes. so do you now think our Q4 revenue number is in jeopardy?

CMO: we can hit the revenue number

CEO: great!

CMO: but we'll just be kicking the can down the road

CEO: what do you mean?

CMO: you know how i've been doing those P&L deep dives with fred (CFO) to isolate why our contribution margin has been going down?

CEO: yes, but we've got big COGS improvements coming in '26 that will take that number up

CMO: unfortunately, my latest rev of the forecast has our marketing costs more than canceling out gains from COGS improvements. we can only lean on existing customers for so long. we've already been over-emailing and sms-ing our list, especially existing customers. i don't know how much longer that can last

CEO: so what do we do?

CMO: two words...brand reset. 4 parts: 1) data deep dive to understand the true state of our revenue, 2) right-size cost structure to match the reality, 3) build our content machine, 4) systematically hack away at ways to build that resilient revenue base

CEO: sounds horrible. gonna be the best worst thing ever

CMO: yup

Chubbies has done over $100M so far this year, increasing EBITDA margin > 50% YoY. Your classic overnight success that took 14 years. One of the many things they do so well to continually drive balanced, profitable growth where margins can * increase * over time is follow the 95/5 rule as well as any brand I’ve seen. 


However, for the first 5 years, I basically did the exact opposite of what the rule says. My loss is your gain, so here are:


1) Three things I learned about the 95/5 rule
2) Three ways you can update your thinking on the topic
3) Three things you can do about this right now


let's do it.


** Three things I learned about the 95/5 rule **


1. Only 5% of the people who see your content on a daily basis (AKA your potential buyers) are in-market to buy right now. That means 95% of the buyers you reach are out-of-market and won’t buy for months or even years. 


2. And, nope, no matter how awesome your direct response offer is, you cannot persuade the buyer to go in-market because they already have what you’re selling and won’t need a newer version any time soon. We don’t move buyers in-market – buyers move themselves in-market based on their needs.


3. All the direct-response conversion-focused dollars we spend are only relevant to the 5% of folks. This was especially humbling when realizing that ~95% of our spend allocation went to direct response (see reference above re: doing the exact opposite). 






** Three ways you can update your thinking on the topic ** 


1. Our goal is to increase the probability that the brand comes to mind when the buyer goes in-market, NOT to persuade the buyer to go in market. You can’t push buyers down a funnel, but you can, to quote Professor Jenni Romaniuk, “catch buyers as they fall”.


2. ""People largely use their memories when buying, rather than searching. Simply put, the brand that gets remembered is the brand that gets bought."" - John Dawes of the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute


3. Since marketing works by influencing future buyers, think about developing creative that gets noticed and gets remembered -- gives you permission to be bold, put on a show and have a little fun.




** Three things you can do about it right now ** 


1. Since we've all been so focused on optimizing the hell out of how we convert the 5%, we need to reacquaint ourselves with the 95%. Walk a day in the shoes of the 95% to develop the empathy needed to effectively speak to that person. 


2. Put together a plan to gradually shift your marketing investments to match the reality of the 95/5 rule. It could take all of 2024. No need to rush.


3. Take a day with your team. Remove all meetings. From a blank slate, think about what it means to do things that get remembered, that get noticed. What does it mean for your brand to be bold, to put on a show, and to have a little bit of fun? 


enjoy

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